12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? I am sure that Sproul Sr. paid for that. (And we are all frustrated with the double standards we have seen!!). Al-Anon helps people take care of themselves around an alcoholic, to see clearly, so that they can make a decision that is best for their situation at the right time in their lives. RC2 has been off the rails for a long time and has been able to act outrageously under his fathers overt protection. I took her post as saying if a guy is doing something unethical or that the Bible says disqualifies that person from a leadership position, then the guy should step down. Velour wrote: Never reconciled with some of his adult children, became semi reclusive. Whatever that hurt is, it must be addressed. This past Saturday, June 17, my daughter was married. Often it is tried multiple times. Would it help your perspective any to know that RC Jr has unjustly excommunicated entire families, and were not just talking a few, including small children, for the alleged sins of their parents? Hed lost his wife and daughter only works if we ignore chronologies. It is natural for a father to want to protect a child from the consequences of their actions but at some point in time when the child keeps doing this the parent has let them experience the consequences. Beloved husband of Dorothy L. (nee Bury); loving father of Kathy (Dan) Lovell, Susan (Bill) Beifuss, and Albert (Janet). I was raised with the reality that people know what you are doing and it all comes back on you-at school, at church, in your social circle, on the job and wherever. If a church has an alky support group/ministry theyd be the exception, and only in that case would I say a church is qualified to step in and help. Horrific..emotionally, physically , life changing in every way. Which is sad & lonely. Otherwise, there may well be avoidable tragedy in their futures. In fact most drunk drivers are pulled over by the police not because theyre driving recklessly, but because theyre driving abnormally slow. Commercials always depict drinkers as so happy, having fun, etc. For the record, I said above I dont know where I stand on this. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindlernot even to eat with such a one. Youll say in one breath that the dude should be fired or held accountable, but then you get angry with people who say he should be held accountable or be fired (in public). We were basically a para church ministry. When I am around a person/s who are alcoholics, I will not drink alcohol because I dont want to be a cause for them to be tempted to drink. There isnt much else to say. The Pittsburgh Press. So behind the times.). As Mel Gibson found out the hard way a few years ago. No, we have theological differences about how people in the church with addictions should be handled kicked out. What is that about? My uncle was a drunk driver. The solution to spiritual abuse isnt to cast aside what the Bible commands the church to do, its to obey the Bible. Overview of Vesta Voorhis Sproul Lives in: Sanford, Florida Based on Velours behavior in this thread especially, she isnt quite as kind-hearted or caring as you and her other friend who usually jumps to her defense feel she is. @ Velour: Our secretary had to make arrangements (many times) to have him picked up from a bar / tavern because of his condition due to drinking. He was 78. Yes, he shouldnt have been on Ashley Madison, but hed lost his wife to cancer and was probably lonely. It doesnt take any effort to destroy such a lame excuse. And money. I assume you already know, Christs church isnt a building or a place to park our butts on a pew. They are likely growing up in a home with an alcoholic and will develop serious problems as the years go on. We met many times at a local restaurant after car shows. I work with a lot of young people who have an alcoholic parent just met a new one today & it guts families & childhoods. I disagree with your lack of knowledge about addiction treatment, how we handle it in the church, and your theology. I could be paving the path to hell for them. The other does not. She didnt use the term excommunication. Much of the information posted is inaccurate both in substance and interpretation. Even books Ive read by MHPs or counselors will sometimes have a chapter cautioning people who are suffering from problems to be careful if seeking a MHP for their own use, because some MHPs are incompetent, greedy, or too arrogant to be of help. The person will be encouraged to continue the behavior. He pleaded no contest to one and the rest were dismissed. Things that make perfect sense to you do not compute for the alcoholic, and vice versa. Says that even now, when he sees a half-full glass of wine or beer left over at a restaurant, he has to fight down the urge to run over, grab the glass, and chug the remainder.). Making the excuses in advance; yes. TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED!. He needs to be in treatment and his family needs to be in special support groups for dealing with an alcoholic relative and learn how to take care of themselves. Sorry to burst the bubbles of any here who revere RC Sproul Sr, but as the old adage goes The nut doesnt fall very far from the tree.. Thanks for giving us that information. Not that it has anything to do with alcoholism, but many adult children of my acquaintance will never step foot in a church again because of the toxic teachings of RC Sproul Sr., RC Sproul Jr, and like-minded men who espouse the same teachings. He will also get real psychological help for his children to work through the various traumatic experiences they have been through. Its about Love. Thats wonderful news! Sr is 100% responsible for keeping him in the pulpit, both via Ligonier conferences and through his personal influence. Thats the importance of getting them into treatmentand then waiting, praying, and not enabling. I, too, am very disappointed with the black hole into which this thread has disappeared. In time, this changes for the better. Bridget wrote: I pray one day my conscience will grow stronger, so that this wouldn't be necessary. I clearly said there was no such correlation, that any excuse to the contrary is not accurate. That is manipulative on your part. ALL LIES. Too many churches are already a breeding ground for guilt, shame, coercion, manipulation, etc. But to take that info and post it here? And looking at this from a third angle: Even if the person may have been hurt they may still be absolutely correct and objective in what they say. Please read and then perhaps you will be able to respond according to what I ACTUALLY said. We are, after all, all Christians here, and are called to bear one another's burdens. I assume you already know, Christs church isnt a building or a place to park our butts on a pew. Heres where we seem to fundamentally agree: After the alky refuses to cooperate, which most drunkards do (sorry for substituting the Dark Ages biblical term), what then? Not always. When you advocate excommunications for people, be prepared to fully explain yourself and be prepared for push back. I said, as you know, that he should lose his job. Based on his history I am sure he did it numerous times without getting caught. Here is what he REALLY said. Yes, alcoholics need consequences to their actions to help them hit bottom. Many Christians, including from other cultures and countries, incorporate alcohol just fine in their lives without any problems. The Sprouls have eleven grandchildren, one granddaughter deceased, and seven great-grandchildren. The legal issue with Sproul 2 is that he wasnt diverted to the substance abuse court which dealt with misdemeanors and he was being charged with felonies. We certainly understand the issue as much as anybody. The Bible shows us how, and helps us to do that. leads to much worse compulsive drinking. It works some of the time. So that is why I and possibly some others had a visceral reaction of Remove this cancer from the Body once and for all. Does his life bear the mark of a Christian? I also know plenty of men and women who are clean and sober and have had transformed lives. Awful. Sproul 2 has his own household and is not part of his fathers household. If he has been drinking as long as is being alleged, Sproul is at high risk of offending again. Sproul Jr. does need to be fired for his abusive conduct. I had not heard that. More like As much as I can, as strong as I can, to get as hammered as I can, as fast as I can? To me, the urgency should be to get him out of ministry leadership entirely. Neither one of us are church goers and our family is no overly religious. That so easily could have been all she wrote. @ Barbara Roberts: Hes got to want it for himself. I am well aware of the failure rates of alcoholics and substance abusers. Being a parent of an alcoholic or drug abuser is scary. IMPORTANT PRIVACY NOTICE & DISCLAIMER: YOU HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO USE CAUTION WHEN DISTRIBUTING PRIVATE INFORMATION. But I have a lot of sympathy for his kids/family, and hope he gets help for their sakes. I got what Deborah meant when she said addicts cannot be helped, but the other lady who replied to her took that remark the wrong way. He is living under the supervision of other strong, caring family members who watch over him and he is slowly regaining his ability to function normally, as well as his dignity. Yes, there sure is. I had already read your first comment about Barbara and codependency. She just soaked up the love in the very back and left each time. Do they choose their friends among other heavy drinkers? He gave several steps to be taken in dealing with a professed believer who is living a life of rebellion against God. (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous. I have been nice to H.A. Letting him remain in the church passing himself off as a Christian does not help him hit bottom. And they have people in their life who are honest with them and call them on it. People do terrible things. I sure hope that church members or family members uncover the rest of the sins that have been covered up at St. Peter. I dont think you have any real awareness, Julie Anne, of the damage that Barbaras words did to people who lurk here who struggle with addiction. Since many of his abuses of people appear to be in front of the entire church, than at some point in his recovery besides making individual amends he should be making public amends, with the help of a sponsor guiding him in the process. Sorry. I even opened up to church people about some of the problems I had but was met with platitudes and put downs, not support. The majority of pastors, elders, deacons, church counselors, and church staff in general arent qualified to give counseling of any kind on any subject (even the Bible sometimes), even though they often presume they are. SEE? That is where God met me and my family member. Were not mind readers. I took doctor-prescribed anti-depressant meds for years. Im not seeing how sitting in a church building once a week listening to sermons treats things such as depression or alcoholism. 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