Height / 13 ft 1 in As we approached this, Lorenzo increased the back pressure and stopped trimming at 1.5 times the stall speed. Now I find out this has been an issue for several days but they have not sent out any communications to the owners mentioning this issue, nor is it mentioned on their website. Thank you! This buffet, although it feels like a stick shaker through the column, is all aerodynamic from the forward wing and serves as an excellent stall warning. P180 Avanti Pressurization System. The engines have pneumatic boots on the intake combining with an engine particle deviator door to avoid ice entering the engine core and a warm bleed air supply to the engine oil cooler intake. At one point, Avantair had 57 P180s in its fleet. Piaggio P.180 Avanti II: N141JT: Private: 0: Georgetown, TX: sub: 09-JUN-2018: Piaggio P.180 Avanti II: N977RS: private : 0: Tivat Airport (TIV/LYTV) w/o: 03-JAN-2019: Piaggio P.180 Avanti: N990RS: Rainbow Sandals Retail Inc. 0: 20 nm W of Kelowna, BC: While canard configurations like the Beechcraft Starship were gaining a lot of attention back then, the exotic Avanti begged to be even more different with its three-lifting-surface arrangement versus the canards tail-forward setup. I still can't believe they are not making this issue public. Weather its a Normal procedures or abbreviated checklist, Ill take them. I was offered a fairly large hourly credit for my cancellation, which makes sense from their perspective. Avantair has retained safety expert Nick Sabatini to oversee the project. Management is out for their gain and don't care for the customers, after all it is the customers who legally own the airplanes, not the company. If anyone has any insight please share it. But it was not his fault that it. I hope the problems get resolved quickly and I look forward to future flights. The contract includes ten strict orders with options for 40 more. Just ask the Netjets pilots about how many Citations were broken in the late '90's and early 2000's. With regard to maintenance all you need to do is get an engineer to do you monthly checks and for the big ones send it to Dusseldorf. The Aviation Safety Network is an exclusive service provided by: The twin-engine airplane departed 23 minutes behind schedule to pick up passengers at an intermediate airport. Bill, it appears that Avantair "lied by ommission" when they responded to you. Then, Cessna built a tougher Citation which you see today - more ready for fractional use. The foreplane is essentially a portion of the wing moved to the front to allow the main wing to be moved further aft in order to create a larger cabin. We have graduates from Embry-Riddle, Purdue, UND, Parks College, etc., some of the most respected aviation schools in the world. The Avanti II, as I said, handles nicely, and this comes in handy in the pattern, where hand-flying is far easier than it is with most jets. As we tracked toward this point, Lorenzo handed me back control for the last approach. The Avanti II gets its best range figures, up around 1,500 nm, at higher altitudes and lower fuel burns, and Grant told me that the range is real, commenting that he has never had to make more than one fuel stop going from any one point in the continental United States to another. The instrument is a dual-purpose gauge showing both torque and interstage turbine temperature (ITT), Tq shown by a green arrow and ITT by a line. Villi selected the Rockwell Collins RTA-800 weather radar on his nav display via the display control panel down the side of the PFD, to monitor a cell just inland. To answer the number one question Avanti sales reps get at airshows, the lifting surface at the front of the airplane is not a canard, at least not according to Piaggio Aero. I selected terrain on my PFD to map the coastline. Cabin dimensions are spacious compared to a Beechcraft King Air and more in line with a midsize jet. I have only been an owner for a short time but the flights I have taken have been flawless;The pilots seemed happy and very professional. It just so happens to be one of the most unusual looking ones too. The complexity of the airplane also translates to high maintenance costs as well. I wont get into the details of it here, but suffice it to say Grant was busy with taking notes as I flew the airplane. WebPostaccident examination revealed both nose gear tires were deflated, and the right main tire had low air pressure. During this exercise, Villi described the ice detection and anti-ice system, controlled on a switch panel directly beneath the central MFD. With fully reversionary flat-screen displays with a host of safety utilities, including TCAS, TAWS, satellite weather and more, the avionics suite is top-notch, and Piaggio Aero has been working with Rockwell Collins since the introduction of the Avanti II to add upgrades as they became available. For Genoa this means an ILS approach onto Runway 28, and if the wind is from the east, as it was for our flight, a circling approach. A CEO and board that has taekn this company into a downward spiralouot of business in 3 monthsnice stock price!! You need to check your facts pal, they offered voluntary leaves to avoid furlough up until recently a handful of people have been fired for the slightest error in judgement. The price of the latest Piaggio P180 Avanti EVO is US $ 7.7 Million. Now thats not bad for the performance you get (6 pax plus bags 1300-1500nm). source: You obviously have drank the company kool aid for so long you are unaware of it or just don't care about your fellow employees who have been sacked as a result. As it wraps itself around the pointy nose of the P.180, the windshield stretches out for several feet in front of the pilots and wraps back around them tightly. Perhaps its greatest asset is being the worlds most eco-friendly, twin-turbine business aircraft. ^ Goyer, Robert (19 April 2012). "Piaggio P.180 Avanti II". Flying. Archived from the original on 9 June 2017. Retrieved 19 June 2017. Think of the Avanti II as a jet with props and youll be close to the mark ^ Berlin, Jeff (1 March 2008). P180 Avanti Pitot and Static System. The trade off is the fact that the Avanti has jet-like runway performance limiting it to runways 5,000 feet or longer, generally, depending on weight and density altitude. Had this been a 121 flight, the Captain could have had the passengers detained for interfering with a flight crew and stomping out on the supposedly "secured" ramp, but this isn't 121. A fully independent backup navigator can be installed as an option. For years, Avantis languished on the fringes of general aviation as a niche airplane. Safety is Avantairs top priority. We continued to decelerate and shortly after selecting landing flaps, I turned toward the hillside on my left to line up with the runway as we passed through 600 feet. Closing the power levers to idle sounds the gear warning horn, which is canceled using a button on the RH power lever. If not pilots for a direct competitor that would benefit from a VNR no longer there, I would guess that they might be disgruntled former employees filtered out by VNR's well-known tough training program. But that there are some management issues. Had Chuck Yeager and Sully Sullenburger, himself, flown the aircraft, the result would have been the same. Todays airplane has the Rockwell Collins Pro Line 21 avionics suite, with all the bells and whistles. However, lately the service sucks and now this. (Please expect us to be bashed by current Avantiar employees. A friend owns a The Avanti II does indeed have a big cabin, the best in its class by far, and it also has good speed and range, and best-in-class fuel efficiency. But it was not his fault that it. Viewing this report requires Adobe Reader be installed on your device. It pulled the concept off. As we returned to our starting point alongside Villanovas smart, modern terminal, we allowed the PT6s to cool for the required two minutes before securing the airplane. Piaggio will also increase the Evo's maximum zero fuel weight (MZFW) to 10,200 pounds, up from 9,800 pounds. While I flew, Villi checked the Airplane Flight Manual and the performance graphs corroborated these figures to within a couple of knots at ISA +5. We maintained 250 knots toward the runway and then, with just over four miles to touchdown, Villi pulled the power levers to idle and climbed slightly to reduce speed, which bled off quickly. Everyone at Owner Services couldn't have been nicer and the vast majority of the pilots were courteous and very professional, and I had zero complaints with them. This is another advantage of a turboprop. It is not, at least not primarily. Its a great formula. The other huge advantage of the configuration is that it opens up the fuselage, allowing a cabin that is closer to that of midsize jets than light jets. The pitch trim is activated by first pushing in the thumb hat control on the outboard horn of the control wheel and then moving the switch in the desired direction. Operationally this company is in big trouble. Now I find out this has been an issue for several days but nobody told me my flights were in jeopardy. The Avanti EVO is the fastest turboprop available currently. Yes. Piaggio P.180 Avanti: Owner/operator: Avantair Inc: Registration: N146SL: MSN: This press release was issued by Avantair late last night: AVANTAIR UPDATE ON VOLUNTARY STAND-DOWN OF OPERATIONS. Don. We were cleared through 8,000 feet very quickly and then up to FL350, set up using the flight guidance panel (FGP) on the glareshield and appearing in cyan in the top right hand side of the PFD. Landing the P.180, as Id heard previously, is interesting in that the attitude is very flat. For turbine operators in busy airspace, ATC may not allow climbs into the 30s or 40s for long, if at all. At 400 feet, Lorenzo handed me control for my first landing. Several years ago I shared a King Air 200 with another company which was great until the partner got into financial trouble and couldn't pay their half. Ill let Peter Garrison work out both the semantics and aerodynamics of the question (if those two disciplines would differ on the subject). We are enhancing our maintenance and operational infrastructure so that it surpasses every standard that applies to the aircraft we fly. The difference between the two, they say, is that the forward wing, while a lifting surface, is not a controllable one. Avantair and the FAA may call it voluntary, but it's all semantics. Piaggio received the first major order for the Piaggio P180 Avanti EVO from a Hong Kong-based investment company and Bravia Capital advisor in July 2014, for up to 50 Piaggio P180 Avanti EVO aircraft. I was pleasantly surprised at how nicely the Avanti II handles. The biggest problem I had was in remembering that I wasnt flying a jet and that mounted 30 feet in back of me, completely out of sight, were two turboprop engines. And of course the obvious, why do they wait until I book a flight before telling me they are grounded (of course I know the answer to this, but wow, if I had just known, I could have made other plans a bit more easily). Companies in trouble do this to avoid the panic of "furlough" status. That said, they never even sent me a quote, which I got elsewhere for a king air (and a Lear 55, I am taking the King Air). This airframe, T7-ASG, SN3007 was the first Avanti to be produced at the new manufacturing facility in Villanova DAlbenga, one year after production was moved from Genoa. They offered to find me a charter at MY EXPENSE, which just isn't right. The co-pilot was not fired. What we didnt fully realize is that over the next 20 years no light jet would emerge that could challenge the P.180s remarkable combination of speed, fuel efficiency and cabin size, a trifecta of strengths that has made it a popular transportation airplane with operators for whom efficiency, comfort and high style are the hallmarks of having arrived. Yes, the Captain, a mere mortal and an infallible being, DID miss the elevator on his post flight inspection. Last night, an FAA spokeswoman told me that Avantair still has its certificate. As of today, about 40 of Avantairs airplanes were back in service after the inspections, and the St. Petersburg, Fla.-based company expects to have its entire fleet flying again by Thursday. 79 dated 17 WebThe pilot said he was flying the RNAV GPS runway 36 approach in 3 miles visibility and that the wind was from 070 at 9 knots. The Shape of Fast Inside, the cabin is conversationally quiet since the propellers are way behind the cabin. As far as the crew that experienced the elevator loss, now you will hear the rest of the story.. Due to low ceilings at the destination airport, the crew diverted to the alternate, SAN. The use of alloys instead of composites was a purposeful choice for Piaggio Aero, which certified the airplane more than 20 years ago at a time when there were few successful composite models and sheet metal seemed to augur a shorter approval program than plastics did. There are ten wholly owned Avanti EVOs in operation worldwide, according to JETNET. Web Conserve water to avoid overloading the septic system. The propellers sit in the exhaust of the two PT6A-66B engines and so do not need any further de-icing. Because of the rake angle of the windshield, the glareshield is very deep and provides a perspective unique to the Avanti. Pilot Report: Piaggio Avanti Evo - Aviation International This extensive review underscores our commitment to safety and is necessary as we introduce higher levels of standards and accountability across all of our operations, said Avantair CEO Steven Santo. Whatever the outcome, it was and is an honor and a blast to serve our Owners and work with my fellow VNR employees. The control display unit (CDU) is not identical to the Honeywell unit many Boeing pilots are used to, but most terminology on the keys is familiar and intuitive. Of course, with higher operating weights you wont be able to carry as much fuel or, hence, get as much range, though the truth is that most flights in a 400-knot airplane are less than 1,000 nm anyway, and with a thousand-mile range as the target, you can liberally load the P.180. The main wing leading edges are deiced by hot bleed air from the P3 compressor stage, the forward wing is electrically heated via elements in the leading edge. Now, on to the rumors about the FAA pulling Avantairs certificate. : EASA.A.059 Issue: 07 Date: 11 October 2012 1. a) Type P.180 b) Variant Avanti 2. Let me be clear here and confirm that they are just rumors. Anyone interested in the truth can re-read Piaggio drivers 4 part post. As soon as the crew opened the door, the owner began a verbal rampage asking where the crew had been, why they were late and why they couldn't get into their destinations when other planes (C172's) were landing there. We climbed out steeply at a pitch angle of around 10 degrees with mid-flaps, which gives 13 degrees on the forward wing and 10 degrees and 20 degrees on the outboard and inboard main wing flaps, respectively. Unfortunately, ill-fated business and maintenance practices eventually led to its bankruptcy in 2013. In ground idle and with power pulled back to idle, the airplane still has a tendency, like many turboprops, to get going too fast, so you need to use beta to keep things slowed down. The Avanti II's efficiencies can reduce operating costs by as much as 40 percent, according to Bingham. Technology and Comfort The fuselage, wings, tail and forward wing of the airplane are metal, though admittedly metal that has been shaped and smoothed in a way that makes a compound curve look like childs play. Once level, we were rewarded with what was nearly the top speed of the P.180, which was consistently 395 knots bumping up to that magical 400-knot figure on a couple of occasions, those figures at around 800 pounds per hour total. Where the two designs are in accord is that they are both largely stall proof. The airplane is nicely stable on final. Now, a common misconception is that the Avanti II is a composite airplane. WebThis rare Piaggio P-180 Avanti is an Italien executive transport aircraft with twin turboprop engines mounted in pusher configuration. WebTo order vehicle records online, you will need to: Have a permissible use for the information if purchasing records other than your own; Select Online Services; Under Additional These inspections and other actions are still underway. If anyone in North Florida is interested let me know. I would have no problem putting my family on a flight with that Captain any day. Don, sorry about your situation and lack of communication. We would be more than happy to speak with any Colorado based owners who might be looking for an experienced Piaggio crew. As the airplane has both a forward and main wing, the anti-icing system is slightly more complex than other types. The forward wings are designed to stall first to assist in lowering the nose at the stall, and the ventral fins also add pitch down moment. The lower section, containing two integral carpeted steps, is released by a handle on the left and lowered into position. In these cases, the Avanti proves ever more efficient compared to a jet if stuck in the 20s. It is not like we get copied on FAA directives to know they weren't being followed (which I still don't know to be the case, but it certainly makes sense), much less that they even existed. The pilots asked ATC for the runway favoring winds and were told "any"runway available. Pilots are being pushed to the extreme limits of duty time and rest and general morale simply could not be lower company-wide. As a public company they should be reporting this as a material issue but they appear to be dodging this issue. These actions are part of an overall strategic enhancement of the companys maintenance and operations, designed to raise Avantair to the highest levels of standards and safety.. Thanks guys, If Avantair doesn't do this, FAA will shut them down. Merry Christmas, kool-aid drinkers. Luciano Luffarelli, Piaggio Aerospaces head of external communication and institutional affairs, invited AIN to fly the Evo, and the test aircraft, Alpha Sierra Golf, was flown in from Genoa by Lorenzo Villi, head of flight operations. Of course I didn't totally learn my lesson as now I might be stuck with an Avantair share! Villi led the way, providing an excellent demonstration. P180 Avanti Hydraulic. WebThats why the Piaggio Aero P180 Avanti II is a green aircraft. Other parts, mainly fairings and the like, are composite, but for the most part, Piaggio Aeros Avanti II is a sheet metal airplane. While it seems as though it might make sense to always fly at between 370 and 410, its just not possible many times. chrisallegro January 15, 2010, 6:21pm #1. Like the Starship, the Piaggio Avanti features a canard and rear-mounted engines. But the Avanti is made mostly of aluminum, not composites. It weighs thousands of pounds less than the Starship and is about 60 m.p.h. faster. ^ Martin, Ed (29 October 1989). That is a sign of a company that cares about its pilots. With over 25 years of trading, AvBuyer is the primary marketplace for new and pre-owned turboprops, plus you can read AvBuyer magazine and our online actionable intelligence resources which offer insight, market data and analysis from Reaching ahead between the forward cabin bulkhead, he lifted the left-side pilots seat to provide a clear floor area on which to stand. As the factory-authorized training provider for these aircraft, we have created in-depth, type-specific programs to ensure that pilots and technicians are equipped with the latest in safety training. The one posted under SEC filings on www.avantair.com shows a sentence between the last and next to last sentences that is missing from your release. Shortly before departure, Villi advised me that the autopilot function of the APS-300 flight guidance system was not available. I suspect, that they may be going over all documents now for a variety of reasons. An FAA spokeswoman told me that the grounding was not initiated by the agency, so Im not sure where you got this information. In simpler terms, that means the engines maintain their 850 shaft horsepower to a higher altitude thereby increasing true airspeed of the airplane through the thinner air. I love the Piaggio and Avantair has always been great to work with, but now I have real concerns about their future. The second records shows a Piaggio P-180 Where did you get this press release? These were retracted as we accelerated toward 160 knots. He's been flying for 10 years and is available for piaggio owners WebYou may request that records be sent to you (or your designee) by email, fax, or U.S. mail. Furloughs.too bad. Villi switched on the V-bar flight directors on the PFD of the Rockwell Collins Pro Line 21 flight instruments, selected flight level change (FLC), and synchronized the heading with a button push on the FGP on the glareshield. But it didn't help in the fact VNR was born in the Decade from hell. The Evo reached an indicated airspeed of 105 knots, displayed in flashing amber and with a rate of descent of 1,200 fpm. Have been looking everywhere for these. He placed his left foot at the base of the carpet behind the central instrument panel and stepped forward with his right, placing his foot inboard of the control column and gracefully followed with his left. A most serious maintenance error especially since the elevator installation work would have required a RII type (double) inspection. It is, instead, a forward wing. When Flying first flew the Avanti in 1990, we predicted that its great fuel efficiency would be a big selling point, and that has been true. "Piaggio gets confirmation of Avanti speed records". AINonline. Aviation International News. Archived from the original on 5 September 2018. Retrieved 16 June 2017. ^ Aboulafia, Richard. Maybe if they remove your management and replace them with people who have a decent education to run a business and a training department that trains it's pilots to succeed by helping them understand their job to proficiency. Flying the Avanti II General Data Sheet No. The upper fuselage curves to a peak height just in front of and above the main wing leading edge and then slopes downwards to join the lower fuselage upward curve at a point below the trailing edge of the T-tail that stands with its sharply swept back horizontal tailplane some 13.06 feet above the ramp. I was told my aircraft was on extended maintenance (whatever that meant, now I know). Lastly, I suspect, and I may be mistaken, that it will turn out that there is nothing inherently wrong with the Piaggio. They have a history of lying. Pete Bedell is a pilot for a major airline and co-owner of a Cessna 172M and Beechcraft Baron D55. Piaggio Aero, on the other hand, is still steadily producing its model. Vref lists the value of a 1990 P180 at $846,600 ranging up to $6.1 million for a 2019 Avanti Evo. I have knowledge of quite the contrary. Passenger oxygen deploys at 13,000 feet. One thats lacking is the single FMS. and as I was to taxi, Villi handed over control and released the parking brake by pulling and turning the T handle by his right knee. I flew a new Avanti II out of Denton, Texas, home of Avanti completions in North America, with Piaggio Americas Grant Spigener. After two major incidents/accidents in eight months are not all fractional owners, their employees and their families scared to hell for their own safety??? That said both the plane and the company have been reliable for me for about 7 years. Answer that yourself, but I'm sure that Mandarin would never miss such a thing with yelling passengers, taxiing aircraft, moving tugs, stress, noise, etc.. The Piaggio Avanti EVO is the third generation model of Piaggios flagship model. One lesson I did learn is to do due diligence on a prospective partner so you don't get stuck paying all the bills. Discretion being the better part of valor, I extended the gear early and reduced speed to deploy the flaps, intending to stabilize nice and early so I could concentrate on flying as accurately as possible. Now, to the flight deck and our seats. P180 Avanti Navigation. So happy I left this rag tag joint when I did! I could see why 380 is a preferred altitude. Neither ASN nor the Flight Safety Foundation are responsible for the completeness or correctness of this information. Takeoff over 50-ft obstacle (sea level) / 3,262 ft Nevertheless I told my CFO to write off the whole value of the share as I'm sure it's going to be a mess selling these planes, and with 60 of them being dumped on the market at one time the values are going to suffer. The P180s have a lot of maintenance issues because they are flown to airliner annual times when the planes were only made for a few hundred hours a year with private owners. Having briefly sampled the cruise characteristics, we discussed a simulated emergency descent to 15,000 feet for some medium-level handling. Despite the fact that it took me a while to get a feel for the trim button theres a little activate button in the center of the trim hat the hand-flying was nothing short of delightful. If it's not currently installed, click here to download. Its a hard transition for a pilot coming back to PT6s after having flown modern fadec turbofans from Williams and, yes, from Pratt & Whitney. Please specify the source for your statement. So last saturday I was scheduled to fly from Dallas to Las Vegas at noon. Max cruise speed / 400 KTAS The forward wing (not to be called a canard, as it has no moving flight controls other than forward flaps) is positioned on the underside of a gracefully sweeping nose and is home to two pitot tubes underneath and, unusually in Western types, has a significant anhedral. AOPA Members DO more LEARN more SAVE more - Get MORE out of being a pilot -. Today's grounding is the 4th time in 2 weeks they have grounded the fleet, but the previous times they had slowly returned airplanes to service. For an airplane that looks so unusual from the outside, the experience of flying the Avanti II is in most ways very conventional. They "couldnt" find a charter in time (by 2pm as I had to be back), so they put me on American Airlines. With mid-flaps selected, the indicator in the upper left side of my PFD and on the MFD turned amber, indicating a sequencing issue. Bill, I appreciate the info and your honest evaluation. I didnt alter it in any way I just cut and pasted what they sent me. I had to look at the placard on the panel to decide that it is the latter, but once I worked this out, the trim was powerful and required only a one-second application to remove all the rudder force. The original $5.00 stock traded at .11 cents today, a loss of 98% of its value. Best for: Superior speed When Italys leading aerospace manufacturing company released the Piaggio Avanti EVO, they delivered on three key business demands: speed, comfort, and cost-effectiveness.Piaggio Aerospace blended the very best in Italian design with superb craftsmanship to create a high-performance aircraft that not only turns However, the pilot did not report any pre-accident mechanical malfunction or anomaly with the airplane that may have precluded normal operation. So I took them up on their offer to find me a charter flight. I just read about the one that flipped, but understand, it is only this issue that has me looking at ntsb reports, it is not something most fractional owners do before every flight. In the process it doesnt hurt one bit that the Avanti II just so happens to be one of the sleekest and most beautiful airplanes ever built. While the rate of climb is great, one thing the Avanti II doesnt do is climb or descend at very high indicated airspeeds, the former a condition of available thrust. The closeness to the ground gives the airplane a go-cart feel. Criminal Records include Lansing arrests, arrest warrants, search warrants, On approach, however, the view is excellent. While the forward wing is not fitted with an elevator, it does have a flap, or set of flaps, depending on how you look at it. I got an email at about 10:30 last night saying cancelled for the reasons stated in this email, with the same offer to find me a charter ay my expense. The crew arrived at the intermediate airport and quickly boarded the two waiting passengers.Theydid not perform an adequate preflight inspection and departed about 5 minutes behind schedule. The main wing of the airplane is very small (172.2 square feet, slightly less than a Cessna 210s) and very highly loaded. Comments since yesterday, Oct. 25, seem oblivious to the safety of flight issues. Yes, the Captain, a mere mortal and an infallible being, DID miss the elevator on his post flight inspection. While its fleet was grounded, Avantair outsourced trips to third-party charter operators or, in some instances, told customers it was unable to conduct their flights, a spokesman told AIN. Piaggio can do it, too. P180 Avanti Lighting System. Think of the Avanti II as a jet with props and youll be close to the mark, though in many respects, its not an easy mental shift to make. We know this is an extremely difficult period for our loyal employees and frustrating to our devoted owners, said Mr. Santo. Villi led a thorough guided tour of the outside of the airplane and explained all of its many unique features. Cash is cash, and paying another charter company would sink cash. I call it a three-surface design, with forward wing, main wing and tail. Avantair has been a great lifeboat for many of us and, if it indeed does fail, we will grieve it. Compared to the Avanti II it has redesigned nacelles, winglets, and a reshaped front wing, leading to a 3% reduction in emissions along with a 3% increase in climb performance. Ask yourself this: why would the company voluntarily ground the whole fleet to do audits/inspections all at the same time? I love the Piaggio and up until last week my five years worth of experience was great. Piaggio is still making the follow-on Evowith winglets, composite propellers, and higher useful loadbut only six have been produced since 2015. Piaggios appearance at the Singapore Airshow in February lifted hopes somewhat that the design can survive. Plus bags 1300-1500nm ) out piaggio avanti safety record being a pilot - but it not... Up from 9,800 pounds anyone interested in the truth can re-read Piaggio 4! Proves ever more efficient compared to a jet if stuck in the of... 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